Vegan_Nation_Vegan

http://wcuw.org/vegannation/V.N.12.27.18.Evolution.VeganCats.NoelleObcarskas-UK.mp3

the EVOLUTION of 11 week old KITTEN MIDNIGHT to over 1 year old leaping ADULT VEGAN CAT above pictures !

Leeza Coleman Noelle Obcarskas I get it. I know all about the defensiveness of the uninformed. FROM ALVIN TOFFLER quoting psychologist Herbert Gerjuoy in "Futureshock," this says it all:
“The illiterate of the 21st century will not be those who cannot read and write, but those who cannot learn, unlearn, and relearn. ”

Manage

· Reply · 18m · Edited

Paula Franklin Question for @Noelle Obcarskas -- hi :)Wondering if all the senior vegan cats with longevity that you mentioned are all female? My understanding is that vegan cat food is a lot less potentially problematic with females -- for the obvious reasons of being able to pee out crystals much easier.

Manage

· Reply · 15h · Edited

Leeza Coleman Here is an answer from Armaiti May, a vegan vet. Noelle of course will have additional wisdom.
https://veganoutreach.org/vegan-diets-cats/

· Reply · 10h

Paula Franklin Well I'll tell ya what I think -- given the huge increase in animal diseases (cancer, diabetes, etc.) and how the disgusting conventional pet food is surely causing them, I'd say whatever the monitorable downsides of vegan pet food are, on balance an animal is alot better off eating clean and nutritionally sound vegan food. I've learned that it's not the source (animal flesh) that matters, it's the nutrition. I plan to take the leap soon to vegan cat food. Just have had to hold off because of several cats in the home prior, some senior and male. I'm also into rescue and foster. Gets too crazy, and expensive. Really don't want to do a guinea pig thing on my babes. But if vegan food is pretty safe for females I feel comfortable doing that. Sadly I am down to three now, two mid-age females and one senior male with early stage CKD.

Manage

· Reply · 10h · Edited

Franklin's comment.

Dec 29, 2018, 1:22 PM

Leeza Coleman thank you....because in the discussion here it raised easy now to pick up and post information more reader friendly on a webpage lol ! cutting out NAMES of course wink wink. IMAGINE ! what the vegan cat feeders of 20 years ago had to face without so many of us out there hey ! they took the plunge...without any experiences available to them but TRUST in the petfoods experts had made ! and people lashed out at them of course worrying them massively i am sure !

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Noelle Obcarskas liked Leeza Coleman's comment.

Noelle Obcarskas am reading and rereading all of your comments. thank you for putting so much time into this! A wealth of information.

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Noelle Obcarskas reacted to her own comment.

Leeza Coleman ok ! well THAT picture can be the INTRO PICTURE of YOUR VEGAN CATS PAGE soon we hope lol !

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Noelle Obcarskas replied to Paula Franklin's comment.

Leeza Coleman ok ! well THAT picture can be the INTRO PICTURE of YOUR VEGAN CATS PAGE soon we hope lol !

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Noelle Obcarskas liked Leeza Coleman's comment.

Noelle Obcarskas Thank you!

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Noelle Obcarskas replied to Paula Franklin's comment.

adding...the PEAS had a recent Mike Creighton immediate good result on 7 pH urine test. INERT YEAST like VEGEYEAST is also good....some use ENGEVITA the human inert yeast supplement but some are unsure if that is as effective as the specially formulated for dogs and cats vegeyeast from Compassion Circle. However veggiepets UK were out of stock recently of vegeyeast so suggesting engevita as alternative.

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Noelle Obcarskas replied to Paula Franklin's comment.

Vegetarian feline diets

vegepets.info

Leeza Coleman here is the CAT URINE ACIDIFYING INFO...http://www.vegepets.info/diets/veg-feline.html 4 Urinary alkalinisation ↑

The excretion of the nitrogenous waste products of protein catabolism results in the acidic urine of carnivores. Vegetarian diets with their decreased protein content may result in urinary alkalinisation. The pH (acidity) alterations predispose to the crystallisation of certain urinary salts, resulting in the formation of stones in the urinary system (urolithiasis), which may result in feline urological syndrome (FUS): partial or complete urinary obstruction (which may be life threatening), dysuria (difficulty in urinating) and haematuria (blood in the urine) (Blood & Studdert 1988). Alterations in bacterial flora, with increased possibility of urinary infections, may also result.

Monitoring
Based on his experiences with thousands of vegan cats Gillen (2003) states that 85-90% of vegetarian cats do not require attention to dietary content; however, for the remaining 10-15%, urinary pH and dietary magnesium concentrations (see following) require monitoring. Given that the consequences of urolithiasis can be fatal blockage of the urinary system, particularly for males, I recommend that to provide a good level of safety urinary pH levels of both males and females are checked before implementing any dietary change, to establish a baseline, and weekly thereafter whilst transitioning to a vegetarian diet, and then monthly, for life, even once diet and pH levels appear to have stabilised. Levels should be checked more frequently during any dietary, environmental or other changes with the potential to result in destabilisation, or at the first sign of any urinary abnormalities developing.

Urine can be collected from cats using non-absorbent plastic cat litter available from veterinarians. pH test strips are also available from veterinarians and possibly pet stores (they are also recommended to check the pH of fish tanks), although pH meters provide the most accurate results. pH-indicating cat litter is also available, that changes colour when exposed to alkaline urine (see Suppliers). However, this should only be used to supplement more accurate monitoring.

The likelihood of alkalinisation, urolithiasis, FUS and urinary tract infections may be minimised via several means:

Dietary magnesium
The most common urinary stone (urolith) is struvite (magnesium-ammonium-phosphate) (Blood & Studdert 1988). Hence minimising urinary magnesium concentrations decreases struvite formation. The magnesium contents of diets can be very variable. Ralston Purina’s flagship kibble has been recorded as containing 43mg/100kcalME (0.16% magnesium on a dry matter basis). That pales in comparison to Puss’N Boots Tuna, which contained 84mg/100kcalME (0.25% magnesium on a dry matter basis). Hill’s Prescription Diet c/d contained a far healthier 15mg/100kcalME (0.07% magnesium on a dry matter). Vegecat KibbleMix for cats contained 19mg/100kcalME (0.07% magnesium on a dry matter) (Peden 1999).

Water consumption
Urinary salt concentrations can also be lowered by increasing the volume of water drunk and excreted. Clean, fresh water should always be available, and salty foods or a pinch of salt added to normal wet food are of benefit in stimulating thirst, although these are only safe in the absence of heart disease.

Urinary acidifiers
A pH of 7.0 is neutral, with lower pH indicating acidity, and a higher pH indicating alkalinity. Cat and dog urine is usually slightly acidic, with the normal range being 6.0 - 7.5. Struvite requires a urine pH of 7.0 or higher to crystallise (Gillen 2003). Urine may be acidified in several ways.

Asparagus, peas, brown rice, oats, lentils, garbanzos, corn, Brussels sprouts, lamb’s quarters (the herb Chenopodium album, also known as pigweed), most nuts (except almonds, coconuts and macadamia nuts), grains (not millet), and wheat gluten (used in kibble recipes) may be included in vegetarian cat food, and are all urinary acidifiers (Peden 1999).

Vitamins are also of benefit. Vitamin C (ascorbic acid) is a urinary acidifier. Tablets may be pulverised or ascorbic acid powder may be used. The BSAVA (British Small Animal Veterinary Association) Small Animal Formulary (drug handbook) recommends a dosage of 50-80 mg/kg every 24 hours for cats and dogs (Tennant 2003). In his Very Health Cat Book (Belfield & Zucker 1983) veterinarian Dr. Belfield recommends 500-750 mg of vitamin C daily for healthy 10 pound adult cats, and 1000 mg for healthy queens and large cats or campaigning show cats. For cats with FUS he recommends 500-750mg of vitamin C in the morning and another 500mg in the evening for six months to resolve the problem. He states, “An animal may plug again in six weeks or so, but crystal formations become smaller and smaller and fewer and fewer.” pH buffering negates their effectiveness, so unbuffered Vitamin C should be used. If other urine acidifiers are also used, doses may be decreased.

Methionine is particularly effective in preventing struvite formation. Methionine is metabolised into sulfuric acid which is a powerful urinary acidifier. Additionally, sulfate displaces phosphate from the magnesium-ammonium-phosphate complex, preventing struvite formation. The BSAVA Small Animal Formulary recommends a dosage of 200 mg/cat every 8 hours (Tennant 2003). The dosage should be adjusted to maintain urine pH at or below 6.5. Based on considerable experience, however, Peden (2004) states that a conservative dose for struvite dissolution is 1,000mg/day for a 10 pound cat, taken with meals, which should maintain urine pH between 6.1-6.2. Peden states that methionine supplementation should not exceed 1800 mg/day for a 10 pound cat. Excessive levels can result in metabolic acidosis, with consequent loss of bony calcium and electrolyte imbalances. Methionine should not be used in young animals, nor those with kidney or severe liver disease (Tennant 2003).

Sodium bisulfate is a particularly powerful urinary acidifier, and is added to Vegecat pH (Peden 2004). Ammonium chloride is also a powerful urinary acidifier, but may decrease palatability. In his '5-minute (veterinary) consult drug formulary,' Papich (2004) recommends a dosage of 800 mg/cat (approximately 1/3 to 1/4 tsp of crystals) mixed with food daily.

Gillen (2003) describes three steps, in increasing order of magnitude, that may be taken to rectify urinary alkalinisation, if detected:

1. For minor cases, he states that enzyme supplements which include methionine, vitamin C, and/or cranberry extract will be sufficient. These limit both urinary alkalinisation and inflammation. They also aid digestion, and can result in increased vitality.

2. For moderate cases, Gillen states that Vegecat pH, with added sodium bisulfate, may be sufficient.

3. For severe cases Gillen recommends methionine pills.

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Noelle Obcarskas commented on Marlene Narrow's post.

Paula Franklin I am so pleased to see your positive attitude to vegan catfood. What we need....what helps all of us..are the experiences...the stories....and so ? i hope YOU will join in the VEGAN CAT TALES ! and start a story page of your cats too. Others MUST join in too. As i only let my cat out under supervision and it is so wet she is not liking even brief front garden outings....I did think lol do NOT go get a SPLAT on the road I need you to continue alive for years lol for the Vegan Cat Tales lol ! I did a stupid thing recently...bought some CATGRASS seeds from Veggiepets and scattered them on my herbs and plants outside....had to rip loads of grass out as they grew in a few days bushy everywhere....a plantpot indoors is best. NOT my rubber plant pot that my cat decided to use as a LITTER TRAY and dug up the roots of until I covered it. That was when i put some white crystal material in her litter tray that she did not like I add. So I stick to wood chippings..that i use as extra compost in the garden after used. VEGAN PET POOH IS HEALTHY FOR PLANTS ! unlike the non vegan pooh. Keep it away from house as it still does smell nasty lol.

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Noelle Obcarskas replied to Paula Franklin's comment.

But who of us....when we had rabbit pets and pet dogs and cats....did not have the mental cognitive dissonance of feeding those very same animals to our cats and dogs ? our minds block out what suits us. Out of sight...out of mind issue. Just like when people eat lambs chickens as pieces of food on plates unrecognisable from the animals they once were.

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Noelle Obcarskas replied to Paula Franklin's comment.

whoops well there was the comment i made on his Vet group page when some posted their RABBITS lol...his group was named specifically DOGS AND CATS so the rabbit pet owners were out of place posting there to a crowd feeding RABBITS to their cats and dogs I commented lol I made that same comment on a PETS AT HOME shops page post....told them all that fuss over selling rescue pet rabbits in their shops right next to RABBIT CONTENT PETFOODS for cats and dogs was inefficient.....simply feed the rabbits to the dogs ? or was it about maximising shop floor space to SELL things ?

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Noelle Obcarskas replied to Paula Franklin's comment.

oh jeah...well how did i get into discussions with VETS on vegan cats etc recently ? well some of them went around posting those erroneous media articles about GO TO JAIL false quotes of the RSPCA in the UK....so i had to reply....felt a bit uncomfortable facing up to VETS of course until ? i realised they did not themselves reaise TAURINE WAS VEGAN as standard in petfoods ! The day I went into one of my local vets...whose facebook members i add went into MELTDOWN DELIGHT posts about reporting me to the RSPCA when those media false articles came out....which the vet himself did not read properly to know it was nonsense...the day i arrived for a spay of my kitten....aborted i add as her weight at 6 months was not 2kg which he had failed to inform prior to the appointment...but hey....the switchboard people making the appointment did not know the PRICE of a spay either which irritated me as i said to them at the time....GET A PRICELIST in front of you surely ! anyway..once he blurted anti vegan cat feeding during our talk....i insisted on a blood test of the kitten...he was not in favour said unless SICK he did not do blood tests ! but i insisted ....results came in minutes later...he then goes online to VEGGIEPETS website to read about the petfood lol ! The next time a SPAT arrives on the group...which i left after making enough points....he says...he does not CARE WHERE TAURINE COMES FROM lol ! obviously he had by then realised i was right but did not want to see the relevance of this important matter. ps oh I did him a final PM to say...i would never come again to his practise as I had lost TRUST that he might KILL my cat just to make a point. I had her spay done at another vet.

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Noelle Obcarskas replied to Paula Franklin's comment.

ps i do add re reading what i had previously written on my webpage where i include that link that i have read LOWER protein helps alleviate crystals in cats and for sure when i took a look at the contents of the prescription diets for cats with those problems the protein levels were lower than 33 percent that is the standard in most catfoods.

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Noelle Obcarskas replied to Paula Franklin's comment.

here was a link of one of the studies i found on this matter...Cats more than Dogs genetically as a species have more Kidneys health problems. WILD AND DOMESTIC ONES ! contrary to the BARF mad nutters claims that the water content of Flesh is enough for CATS...it turns out...WILD CATS suffer from Renal meaning Kidneys health problems bigtime...74 percent average hey. FLESH fed wild lions with Kidney problems ? how can that be ? toxins in the flesh they eat ? lack of water ?

http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/0300985810382089 Renal Lesions of Nondomestic Felids

"Renal lesions were present in 52 cats (74%)"

Therefore...it would seem sensible to think...alleviate this risk with WATER and PROTEIN from non toxic sources. VEGAN ONES. and get good quality NON POLLUTED correct pH value DRINKING WATER available to our dogs and cats.

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Noelle Obcarskas replied to Paula Franklin's comment.

It is time....if they have time...and if I prepare a questionaire to guide them..for the vegan cat experts in nutrition and specific cat issues to do a radio talk on the MYTHS that have grown about vegan cats getting uti struvite crystals more than non vegan fed cats...because from evidence seen by me this is NOT the case but an easy conclusion to jump to seeing some cases of these in the smaller population of vegan fed cats to non vegan fed cats around. I have personally spent as explained enough time on the non vegan fed cat groups and reading of scientific articles to know that non vegan cats get crystals bigtime....30 percent risk level it is for them so probably that level for domestic cats generally. I did find it is 87 percent and 74 percent present in autopsies of wild zoo lions etc ! fed raw diets ! uti/renal/kidney diseases to be specific. This is...a cat species feline species genetic weaknesss therefore I suggest. The vets i recently posted those studies to were rather astonished at those articles i found i add. Tried to blame ZOO conditions even in denial....for sure animals in zoos are more stressed...but they are also better fed than in the wild I pointed out. Until then...these vets were into the mantra of DRY IS BAD argument of course and so many pet cat websites blame modern petfoods for domestic cats having 30 percent uti problems but when we dig more we discover it is FAR LESS than the wild lions raw fed ones !

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Noelle Obcarskas replied to Paula Franklin's comment.

oh i did not add any VACCINATIONS done. well cats have some specifics. many indoor cats or fiv cats do not vaccinate i add to my knowledge. i vaccinate i add.

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Noelle Obcarskas replied to Paula Franklin's comment.

right...just replied on email to someone with several vegan fed cats as to what to write in the story for her page or pages....right...well do it freestyle your ideas best and style

but here is checklist to check after the write up or use as guide as to what to include

1. Name and type of cat...short haired...large....weight if known.

2. age of cat....time fed vegan.

3. story of how cat adopted. history of why abandoned....or bought.....

4. nature of the cat....friendly....purrer....scratcher....bouncer or aloof spitting fury noisy demander of food..mine is a big noise if dish is empty

5. name of food fed. any issues accepting it...none with mine i add

6. pictures of different stages of her or his life if available.

7. your views on vegan catfood

8. your views on non vegan catfood

9. any health issues and how dealt with

10. anything else lol

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Noelle Obcarskas replied to Paula Franklin's comment.

HOWEVER ! surely....when we realise...TAURINE the "i need protein" human equivalent spout against feeding cats vegan is VEGAN...we can RELAX about feeding cats vegan !

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Noelle Obcarskas replied to Paula Franklin's comment.

ps i added the comment on the website comments section not the group....not wishing to get myself banned too quickly again lol for mentioning the words VEGAN CATFOOD lol the comment is awaiting moderation to be published lol...what are the bets it will not appear ? we do not want the word VEGAN added to TAURINE hey !

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Noelle Obcarskas replied to Paula Franklin's comment.

Important Things to Consider Before Purchasing Cat Food – Kitten Care Tips

kittencaretips.us

hilarious...just saw new post in a general dogs and cats health group i am in....post was this link....about choosing kitten food criteria...so i added this comment lol..."yes check TAURINE is quantified and on the ingredients...this is vegan synthetic in all so labelled catfoods btw. It is taking a RISK to buy catfood without that on the label. I buy VEGAN catfood where that essential nutrient is clearly stated." https://kittencaretips.us/important-things-to-consider-before-purchasing-cat-food/

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Noelle Obcarskas replied to Paula Franklin's comment.

ps not relevant i do not think to CATS but the dogworld currently is experiencing a MASSIVE HEART DCM health increased problems in dogs. Turns out...GRAIN FREE is the cause ! amazing hey....all those anti grains myths are giving dogs heart diseases !

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Noelle Obcarskas replied to Paula Franklin's comment.

It is not possible...to publically sell petfood that has not the appropriate species nutrients and digestibility etc criteria ! that many have crap and toxins and antibiotics that result in recalls are the tip of the iceberg of course....many cats eating that crap do not die but just get sick.

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Noelle Obcarskas replied to Paula Franklin's comment.

ps lol at the immediate replies to my comments made in reply to "what do you feed your cat" threads where i put VEGAN Ami Benevo and sometimes lentils recipy of Compassion Circle....i got horror reactions....and comments repeated robotically....OBLIGATE CARNIVORES....CATS NEED MEAT....i kept having to reply....well obviously NOT or my cat and others would be SUPERNATURAL BEINGS. People IGNORE the commment TAURINE is VEGAN in all petfoods....they IGNORE the reality of seeing real life vegan cats....and then post GO TO JAIL articles in the press in the UK that i have to explain miss out the IMPORTANT DETAIL of WHO in the RSPCA that denied the statements made those false statements...that PETFOOD AUTHORTIES cannot allow public sales of inappropriate for species petfoods....all that jazz.

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Noelle Obcarskas replied to Paula Franklin's comment.

ps scchhh but having yesterday read on a thread on non vegan cats group the list of foods they were feeding their cats.....i went to see a blue buffalo one named....and ? what do i just read on their website ? HOW TO DEAL WITH OXALATE UROLYTH CRYSTALS ! surgery...medication....Struvite crystals form because of high levels of magnesium phosphate, so your vet will recommend a low magnesium diet thatacidifies urine. Calcium oxate crystals require a diet producing more alkaline urine. oh here we go again...remedies suggested....pulsatilla and aconite...PLANTS. Well not suggesting those one is a poison in large doses....but it goes to show...plant remedies are used to cure these obligate carnivore health issues.

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Noelle Obcarskas replied to Paula Franklin's comment.

she was hassling me lol about doing better design PAGES for her precious vegan cats lol....did not like my start page design...i replied well OK but give me some MEAT to work on excuse the expression meaning STORIES ! ps the bible misuses the word MEAT for FOOD often i add in Genesis even the word MEAT is wrongly translated for FOOD

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Noelle Obcarskas replied to Paula Franklin's comment.

I have just pm message from a several vegan cats owner....instructed by me to send me more stories and details for our VEGAN CAT TALES online book ! right...she just replied she has VIDEOS to send too ! great !

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Noelle Obcarskas liked Mike Creighton's comment.

Paula Franklin Struvite crystals can occur due to lack of moisture in the diet if a cat eats a dry food and doesn't drink enough water. I have never had this problem with my cat Roger even when he eats dry he drinks plenty of water, never had any problems with him peeing even when his ph 7 was higher than the range.

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Noelle Obcarskas replied to Paula Franklin's comment.

Paula Franklin we do not have enough reports to know ...what i have read is it is STRUVITES....caused by too alkaline urine...which is exactly the same as the most common crystals in non vegan fed cats. It seems clear the balance of acidity is a genetic cat problem therefore...the non vegan petfoods alkalinised more the petfoods to relieve the more common years ago oxalite crystals and ended up now with more struvites. So we are the same imho.

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Noelle Obcarskas replied to Paula Franklin's comment.

With dry food...I agree having realised LIQUID intake is a problem with low thirst drive felines as a species....wet is better...BUT ! big BUT ! once a cat is used to dry....they become DRY CRACK ADDICTS and do not WANT to eat moist food ! i had that experience...i thought oh buy Benevo Duo wet canned food....i put that in front of my kitten who had eating DRY for some weeks....and she refused it ! she likes to crunch ! and i saw many cats prefer to crunch dry....so giving them coconut milk and running filtered water is important. I add my cat demands i turn the sink tap on when i am sat on the toilet nearby so she likes to drink running water. A neighbour of mine has dirty still water outside...one day i say well that is dirty needs changing..he replies...no the cat prefers to drink when it has been standing a while ! we are perplexed about all these cat foibles hey !

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Noelle Obcarskas replied to Paula Franklin's comment.

well there is another problem....the dry food issue. I just yesterday joined some general cats groups...busy seeing the ANGER emocons to my introduction of my vegan fed cat of course...often get BANNED eventually there....but spend enough time there to see the huge number of uti problems and the VEGAN remedies greatly as solutions suggested lol. however..this one group had a long set of RULES ....1st is...NO FOOD BASHING 2nd NO INDOOR CAT BASHING..those create the biggest ROWS in the cat groups. The RAW FEEDERS are like in the general dog groups very very vociferous and reply.....FEED RAW to ANY problem One day to make you laugh...i saved the thread....a dog arrives in a dog health group with 14 health problems list. FIRST advice is ? FEED RAW ! 100 comments later one reads the dog IS fed raw and has all these health problems lol ! i add that the problems of that dog were not really DIET related but as I dared comment...BREED RELATED...it was a GREAT DANE ! Deutsche Dogge....the Germans call that dog a German not a Dane...anyway....i wrote simply....GREAT DANES ARE A VET BILL WAITING TO HAPPEN ! they all die of stomac torsions and heart weakness problems...my sister lost 4 of them like that.

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Noelle Obcarskas replied to Paula Franklin's comment.

i had a non vegan fed cat in the past who passed blood so uti problems in her urine....it was the vet said caused by STRESS not diet i add. Plenty non vegan fed cats get these problems. My solution for her was letting her live with relatives lol....i adopted her under pressure one day at a French rescue ...a black adult cat the least adopted colour in rescues....anyway....kittens take better to dogs than adult cats.

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Noelle Obcarskas replied to Paula Franklin's comment.

and as i mentioned...Mike Creighton who has an adopted Male cat with FIV disease he is the one recently who had a pH urine test of 7 that he sorted in 1 day by the peas to acidify the urine. Now there are many remedies for these uti problems...vitaminC...cranberries...Evolution catfoods are specifically more uti friendly than others but i have seen some cats still got utis ..and Compassion Circle imho provide the best remedy possibly in their special recepies for UTI problem prone cats.

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Noelle Obcarskas replied to Paula Franklin's comment.

Paula Franklin exactly ! now i was just replying on pm to a vegan at owner of several vegan fed cats not happy with my first attempt at pages of the vegan cats....and i just replied as i do to you...we WANT the stories...give me your story of how your non vegan fed male cat had to have that operation ! and with the link i provided to the scientists explaining WHY males get those problems....we can have VEGAN CAT TALES stories pages....this would help other cat owners greatly imho

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Noelle Obcarskas liked Paula Franklin's comment.

Noelle Obcarskas Yes I had a cat (rip Fellini) that had to have that operation where they cut the tip of the penis so the opening is bigger. He never had a problem again after that. Would have to look at the existing studies or observations of vets with vegan cat patients.

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Noelle Obcarskas replied to Paula Franklin's comment.

hi I just replied above to the questions of male cats and uti issues...i would say ...i still believe from examples and what reasons i have read are...male cats are more prone to crystals than females due to their physiology...but that i do not believe vegan diets are more risky it has become a MYTH i believe to think so forgetting the non vegan male cats get these crystals bigtime.

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Noelle Obcarskas liked Paula Franklin's comment.

Well I'll tell ya what I think -- given the huge increase in animal diseases (cancer, diabetes, etc.) and how the disgusting conventional pet food is surely causing them, I'd say whatever the monitorable downsides of vegan pet food are, on balance an animal is alot better off eating clean and nutritionally sound vegan food. I've learned that it's not the source (animal flesh) that matters, it's the nutrition. I plan to take the leap soon to vegan cat food. Just have had to hold off because of several cats in the home prior, some senior and male. I'm also into rescue and foster. Gets too crazy, and expensive. Really don't want to do a guinea pig thing on my babes. But if vegan food is pretty safe for females I feel comfortable doing that. Sadly I am down to three now, two mid-age females and one senior male with early stage CKD.

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Noelle Obcarskas replied to Paula Franklin's comment.

hi just saw the questions....1. no the long lived cats included the male Siamese cat example..Poppy who died not long ago just short of his 20th birthday. http://vegan-information.com/Vegan_Cats_List_Examples.html 2. 2nd question asked was about uti crystals....and from what I had read it is true that male cats due to their shorter urinary tract physiology are more prone to crystals than femaleshowever just this morning i read...as we often do...a contradictory article by vets saying the opposite...that marginally females get them more than males....which surprised me as i could understand the narrower urinary tract issue for males. Here is the article on about a marginal more female cat issue...http://familyvet.com/clients/18781/documents/StruviteUrolithiasisCats.pdf but here is the to my mind more logical article stating why males get them more. It is not really DIET issue but physiology issue and genetic cat propensity to these uti problems i add. There are cats on all sorts of diets who get such uti problems. A recent high alkaline urine test vegan male cat owner cured the problem in 1 day by giving his cat some peas to eat that acidified the 7pH urine ! 6.5H is the ideal. Below that is risk of Oxalite crystals..which are now more common in flesh fed cats due to too acidic urine than the previously more common struvite crystals due to too alkaline urine. Water liquid intake sure helps with this cat species genetic weakness and the right filtered pH corrected water helps too. ah found the very interesting article that explain the HUGE percentage changes of the different crystals non vegan cats got over recent times. https://www.petcoach.co/article/urine-crystals-and-bladder-stones-in-cats-formation-diet-an/Leeza Coleman Paula Franklin

THOSE WERE THE AFTER THE TALK COMMENTS....now THE BEFORE THE TALK COMMENTS....

Vegans Rising/Vegan Nation WCUW

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http://www.wcuw.org/vegannation/V.N.12.27.18.Evolution.VeganCats.NoelleObcarskas-UK.mp3

Vegan Nation radio features vegan cats on Thursday, December 27, 2018, 4 p.m. to 4:30 p.m. Eastern time (9pm London time). Interview withNoelle Obcarskas, a Vegan educator/activist in Chester, Cheshire County, England; and also featuring Lynn Crandall-Weisman & Eric Weisman, the co-founders/owners of Evoluti... See More

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Vegans Rising/Vegan Nation WCUWLeeloo: https://www.facebook.com/.../a.1016.../10161132067405084/...

Vyara V. Dobrotina Awwe, this is my furry baby Leeloo!

Evolution Diet Pet Food Corp.

December 14 at 12:43 AM ·

@2_vegan_cats ・・・
Quite often I am asked what, in my option, is the best vegan cat food. Based on how Mew and Leeloo reacted to the food (taste, digestion, coatshine, etc.), my experience with three of the major brands (Compassion Circle, Ami and Evolution) shows that this particular food — @evolutionpetfood Gourmet Maximum Life — is the best. It’s nutritionally complete, suitable for all stages of cat’s life, it’s grain-free, and these 2 vegan cats thrive on it (according to our nonvegan vet). You can order it directly from Evolution at www.petfoodshop.com or at www.veganessentials.com, www.vegancats.comand www.ecodogsandcats.com. • This account is *not* affiliated with any of these sites. My sole goal is to educate others why veganism is a moral imperative and how that translates into our daily lives. ▪️💚▪️ Please #GoVegan, adopt or foster, spay or neuter a homeless animal and provide them with specialized vegan food.

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Noelle Obcarskas et voila ! le discours ! je leur explique...ce que veut dire OBLIGER l'origine du mot "obligate" utilisee pour les canivores ! ca veut dire FORCER ! le discours...and now...for POSTERITY here is the recording of the USA radio talk we did ! http://wcuw.org/.../V.N.12.27.18.Evolution.VeganCats... I mention Vegan Cats open public group English language cats group where posts of thousands of members can be read https://www.facebook.com/groups/126322004672/ and the France French vegan cats group Chats et Chiens végétaliens (VegAnimalis.com)https://www.facebook.com/groups/329178813798232/ and the Germany German Vegan Cats group Vegane Katzen. https://www.facebook.com/groups/vegankatzen/ and I mentioned Vegan Cats and Dogs United English language group.

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Noelle Obcarskas and now...for POSTERITY here is the recording of the USA radio talk we did ! http://wcuw.org/.../V.N.12.27.18.Evolution.VeganCats...

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Noelle Obcarskas ps....to grin like a Cheshire cat is a very old English expression. Lost in time. However ! Lewis Carroll a devout Christian wrote the Adventures of Alice in Wonderland and the Cheshire Cat was a major player in the story.

“Please, would you tell me,” said Alice, a little timidly,… “why your cat grins like that?”

“It’s a Cheshire cat,” said the Duchess, “and that’s why.”

From Lewis Carroll’s 1865 novel, Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland

Did the Cheshire Cat really EXIST however other than in the story of Alice in Wonderland ? well YES ! it is on a CHESHIRE CHURCH in WARRINGTON ! Grappenhall a cat carved below the west window of the St. Wilfrid Church in the Grappenhall Warrington village, in Cheshire, the County that Lewis Carroll was born. So I have updated the webpage of real life Vegan Cats starting with the CHESHIRE CATS ! http://vegan-information.com/Vegan_Cats_List_Examples.html and the PULFORD CHESTER CHESHIRE CAT is up there ! and one can listen to the recorded talks on a link on that page. It is only right and fitting...that a Chester Cheshire cat started to lead us out of the dark into the light.

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Noelle Obcarskas the inspirational cat ! Photograph of the 16th century, sandstone carving of a grinning w:Cheshire Cat on the west wall of w:St Wilfrid's Church tower, w:Grappenhall, w:Warrington, Cheshire. Said to have been Lewis Carroll's (Charles Lutwidge Dodgson's) inspiration for the Cheshire Cat character in his children's book- Alice's Adventures in Wonderland. Carroll's birthplace of w:Daresbury is adjacent to the village of Grappenhall, Warrington, Cheshire https://upload.wikimedia.org/.../Sandstone_carving_of...

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Noelle Obcarskas Let us also clear up the myths that some pet owners use as justification for feeding animal parts of dead bodies. There are generally 2 "camps" of those trying to defend feeding dead animals bred and killed by humans to their pets...1st those who claim "no animals specifically died for petfood" and 2ndly those who claim they feed only the "best" flesh parts of animals to their pets on the grounds that their pets are more important than other animals' lives (these tend to be the raw feeders who ignore that no national vet organisation in the World recommends but strongly is against raw feeding of pets) It is simply NOT TRUE that animals are not bred and killed specifically for petfoods. There are many clearly breeding such animals petfood manufacturers easy to find on google alone that breed their own turkeys chickens lambs pigs cows rabbits etc specifically for their and others' petfoods and who buy in animals of human grade for petfoods labelled premium. Those using parts of animals' bodies like hearts and kidneys etc that are not used as much in the human food chain are a source of ENORMOUS PROFITS to those industries so less animals would be bred and killed if human consumption consumers paid the full price for their meat. If people think feeding the "crap" of below human standard 20 percent of animals who are killed or die before reaching slaughter for human grade meat think those animals were not those who suffered the MOST can realise they are buying in effect the most suffering animals. What in contrast does a vegan fed cat suffer ? none of those sufferings and certainly not death. It is therefore not justifiable to use the suffering and deaths of other animals that humans breed and kill for pets. No "choice" about their food or death is given to those bred and killed by humans animals. Feeding "crap" that is subject to recalls toxins and uncertain not needing to be on labels parts of animals' bodies is not healthy compared to highly controlled vegan petfoods with none of those unknowns and crap in them.

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Max Summers Doesn't change the fact cats are obligate carnivores, this is animal abuse, Chimps in captivity are getting serious health problems, because of the stupid 100% plant diet they're being fed, same will happen to cats. Humans aren't even herbivores, we last a decade at the most as "healthy" on this diet. Please stop abusing animals, if you're not willing to feed an obligate carnivore meat, don't get a fucking obligate carnivore as a pet. Simple.

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Noelle Obcarskas Max Summers there are so many inconsistencies and irrelevant comments in your statements without any foundation or evidence....that it is difficult to know where to start. I suggest simply you read and accept that vegan cats live healthily to 20 years old examples provided..and any cat not getting the nutrients needed would be dead in weeks not months So the matter is obviously proven.

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Noelle Obcarskas Max Summers there are so many inconsistencies and irrelevant comments in your statements without any foundation or evidence....that it is difficult to know where to start. No mention of what nutrients are allegedly missing is not useful ...that is the least that anyone objecting should be able to provide. I suggest simply you read and accept that vegan cats live healthily to 20 years old examples provided, and any cat not getting the nutrients needed would be dead in weeks not months. So the matter is obviously proven. When people stick to a view they hold....be it that the earth is flat not round....there is nothing further to say. It is actually very simple....vegan healthy cats have lived 20 years....so the matter is proven. Views on taxonomy classifications based correctly on what wild lions would have eaten as "forced" to due to not having the adequate nutrients available to them historically....are facts. I do not see why the anger of swearing either....for someone not bothered about killing animals it is illogical to bother about what other people do with their animals. Giving orders to get this or that animal is a waste of time. We have our vegan fed cats already so a silly pointless instruction that is just something people robotically come out with. Now you have had your moment of giving orders to others..hope it relieves you of your inner turmoil. End of discussion. Simple indeed.

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Noelle Obcarskas ps actually monsieur....not wising to enter a chimpanzee diets in zoos discussion here I just address the human diet issue. We should be aware that the World Health Organisation has strong warnings about the increased high risks of cancers from flesh eating...poultry are stuffed with 70 percent of the world's antibiotics just to keep them alive 6 weeks before killing them....causing serious antibiotics resistance in humans AND their pets who eat flesh....prostate and breast cancer strongly affected by the high natural hormones in cows milk intended to grow an animal the size of a cow not a human....calcium leaking out of our bones causing osterperosis high levels....there is not ONE vegan balanced diet that has any such warnings for our health. All the problems with wheat etc intollerance are due to it being in recent years gmo different as is animal feed soy so has created intollerances etc. Why do we have to feed ourselves gmo ? because we need so much land to produce inefficient masses of crops to process nutrition via flesh ! cut out the middle man...get nutrients that are healthy is what is needed. The source is irrelevant ! but surely since plants are the source of all those nutrients we do not need to process them unhealthily via flesh full of suffering as well as additives that cause health problems to us and the planet.

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Noelle Obcarskas And finally I repeat that no vegan fed cat is suffering or unhappy to eat with relish the food we put in their bowls that is full of healthy nutrients they need to outlive their dying extinct even wild counterparts. Cruelty is death..for animals that want to live. Cruelty is the PAIN that the frankenstein turkeys chickens feel and suffer that we humans force on them from the day they are born or when forcibly impregnated as standard in a totally unnatural process. My "organic" turkeys suffer enormous pains in their legs hearts and cannot even FLY as they naturally should be able to....all that CRUELTY is unnatural and animal abuse.

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· Reply · 23h · Edited

Noelle Obcarskas

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Noelle Obcarskas Seeing a few hostile comments...not checking if from so called vegans or non vegans....I think actually only this morning leaving some other so called vegan groups did i realise what the big problem out there is. It is about the FUNDAMENTAL 1ST PRINCIPLES of VEGANISM itself that are not either understood or agreed out there. yet PETA (People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals) did make it clear in one of their slogans....ANIMALS ARE NOT OURS ! to use ! If we agree that ANIMALS ARE NOT OURS...how can we USE their bodies to feed preferred PETS we also OWN ? here is the root of the problem of getting to understanding animal abuse. So many actually DENY that people OWN PETS ! in blind delusions that the chips we put in them the testicles we cut off them the houses we have them live in the food we put in their unnatural bowls is NOT OWNERSHIP ! when it is ! So many people do not see the contradiction in having testicles cut off to FORCE animals to never have famiies of their own and do NOT want an END to PET OWNERSHIP or ANIMAL OWNERSHIP to end that this means people then say...well actually these "pets" are "my fur babies" some eternal prisoner dependents on humans unlike human children who get to leave home and be FREE when adults....and since we OWN these "pets" we have cut the testicles etc off we can KILL ANIMALS that humans BREED and FORCE TO DIE for them ! it is not ethical...not vegan....to BREED AND KILL ANIMALS ! if we do not OWN animals we have no RIGHT to do so.

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Noelle Obcarskas I suggest...a read of the The Abolitionist Approach to Animal Rights - Translated Gary L. Francione essay on the subject is useful...http://www.abolitionistapproach.com/pets-the-inherent.../ and his 6 PRINCIPLES OF VEGANISM....that starts with...the principle that ANIMALS ARE NOT OURS...should not be treated as "property" as they currently are under the law. If we try to pretend "pets" are not "owned" by us but "farm animals" are "owned" by us so we can kill the "farm animal" ones we do not call our "fur babies" then we are speciesist and delusional.

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ABOLITIONISTAPPROACH.COM

“Pets”: The Inherent…

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Noelle Obcarskas Here is the 1st PRINCIPLE of Veganism ...https://www.abolitionistapproach.com/.../the-six.../ "Principle One

Abolitionists maintain that all sentient beings, human or nonhuman, have one right—the basic right not to be treated as the property of others…See More

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ABOLITIONISTAPPROACH.COM

The Six Principles of…

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Noelle Obcarskas Without even going to the "minimal harm" vegan principle next...which would clearly show the illogic of killing 1000 chickens to feed 1 pet cat over 1 lifetime if fed kibble or a mix of flesh and veggies....minimal harm is not 1000 to 1 life decided on deliberately by a human. Without even that failure to respect that vegan principle...how can ANYONE claiming to be VEGAN justify USING ANIMALS AS RESOURCES ? and in the same breath say....I DO NOT OWN THIS PET ! THIS PET IS MY COMPANION BUT NOT THOSE PIGS CHICKENS SO IT IS OK FOR ME TO KILL THOSE !

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Noelle Obcarskas Animals are NOT MEAT ! not to a so called VEGAN ! they have NAMES ! meat is a term for CARNISTS who see ANIMALS AS RESOURCES and kill animals as they are THINGS like MEAT. A PET ANIMAL is owned by a human no matter what fuzzy words people try to use...no one gave birth to a cat if a human....no vegan has the right to prefer a cat as a species to a chicken and USE CHICKENS as fodder for food for an OWNED PET CAT. To try and justify this speciesism and animal abuse on the grounds of SOME ANIMALS ARE OWNED and OTHERS ARE MEMBERS OF MY FAMILY Is pure delusional unethical injustice to animals.

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Noelle Obcarskas IF...and it is CLEAR except to the deliberately BLIND that healthy vegan cats exist...IF it were NOT possible to feed an OWNED PET CAT (ignoring the silly evasive words like fur babies reducing adult prisoner animals to the dependent forever status) VEGAN FOOD that has been proven by the petfood standards needed for their species as appropriate and digestible....THEN IT WOULD STILL NOT CONDONE USING ANIMALS AS RESOURCES TO BREED AND KILL THEM FOR A PET ONE ! Not ethically ! not based on MINIMAL HARM grounds ! or VEGAN PRINCIPLES grounds ! 1000 animals lives to 1 is NOT MINIMAL HARM.

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Noelle Obcarskas

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Leeza Coleman Listen here:
http://www.wcuw.org/.../V.N.12.27.18.Evolution.VeganCats...

The interview is with vegan educator, activist Noelle Obcarskas. The real stars do not get to speak: 20-year-old vegan feline personage Celine; vegans Midnight and Little Tyke who are shining living demonstrations of the way the plant kingdom can do it all.

Noelle explains that she counters the comments of doubters with fact, science, and logic.

The second part of the show opens with Will Tuttle's music: this time, The Turkey Song. His music never gets old! Love it!

Marlene gives a shout out to senior Celine - a courageous survivor, who is alive because of her vegan diet. A shout out to co-founders and co-owners of Evolution Pet Food, Lynn-Crandall and Eric Weisman, who have been in business for 30 years, includes a clip of Eric's talk at The World Vegan Summit.

Noelle Obcarskas - Vegan educator, activist
https://www.facebook.com/noelle.obcarskas
http://vegan-information.com/

Lynn-Crandell Weisman - co-founder, co-owner of Evolution Pet Food
https://www.facebook.com/lynn.crandallweisman

Eric Weisman - co-founder, co-owner of Evolution Pet Food
https://www.facebook.com/eric.weisman1

http://weismannutrition.com/...

The World Vegan Summit - Eric Weisman was a speaker
https://www.facebook.com/worldvegansummit/

Evolution Pet Food
https://www.evolutiondietstore.com/main.sc;jsessionid...

Only when every home is a cruelty-free zone will there be a possibility of a cruelty-free world. Every act of violence has an echo whose reverberations never stop doing damage.

Thank you, Marlene Narrow and Vegans Rising/Vegan Nation WCUW!

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WCUW.ORG

www.wcuw.org

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Vegans Rising/Vegan Nation WCUW Thank YOU, Leeza Coleman!

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Tek Puran Kaur Great! Congratulations🤩💖🎶🤗

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Evolution Diet Pet Food Corp. Hi Marlene; I look forward to joining your program for an interview on Wed. Dec. 27th, 2018. I am sure you mean 3:00 - 3:30 PM Central Time. Thank you so much for helping our Non Human Friends and the kind invitation. According to a recent study quoted by Will Tuttle 1/3rd of all Animals slaughtered by Humans is used for Cat & dog Foods.

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Emily Rose Lolol! Oh this world we live in today

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Noelle Obcarskas yep we use PETS like toys....force them into silly hats costumes to anthromorphologise them to suit our human idea of "fun" ridiculing them as they have no understanding or liking of what we dress them up as for our entertainment. They have no idea of "birthdays" or "festival days" yet we push them into ridiculous outfits to amuse ourselves. Nothing "natural" about this hey. At least putting FOOD in a dish IS of interest to an animal not our other fantasies...https://www.facebook.com/.../a.954314.../956958214467306/...

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Pets are not Vegan Domesticated Animals are not vegan updated their profile picture.

March 8 ·

ridicule of an animal to suit human anthromorphological needs to patronise non human animals like toys in effect. Does this animal CONSENT to this ridicule ? understand it ? no. we humans impose force our silly ideas on our pets to amuse ourselves.

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Noelle Obcarskas https://www.facebook.com/.../a.956958.../956958574467270/...

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Pets are not Vegan Domesticated Animals are not vegan updated their cover photo.

March 8 ·

yep we use PETS like toys....force them into silly hats costumes to anthromorphologise them to suit our human idea of "fun" ridiculing them as they have no understanding or liking of what we dress them up as for our entertainment. They have no idea of "birthdays" or "festival days" yet we push them into ridiculous outfits to amuse ourselves. Nothing "natural" about this hey. At least putting FOOD in a dish IS of interest to an animal not our other fantasies..what we have here as in all these "dressing up" and "paw waving" to emulate human gestures and outfits is pure disrespect to the animal that has no understanding or liking of this treatment of them. What we REALLY like about our "pets" is their COMPLIANCE to OUR needs as toys entertainment.

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Noelle Obcarskas Take me to a VET and cut my Testicles off please....said no cat. Artifically inseminate unnatural farm breed animals and kill me...said no forced to be killed farm animal humans force that on without their consent either. THEY get no CHOICE about their food either. Do not go shopping for food in tins or frozen or in packets. Nothing "natural" about any of that at all. The USA with a human population of just under 400 million people has just under 200 million PETS (mostly dogs and cats) living in human houses unnaturally and not part of any natural ecosystem. Europe has about 140 million pet dogs and cats for a similar human population to the USA. 4 Million per year are killed as discarded unwanted property in the USA (no legal need to account for the numbers as a whole). HALF of all discarded abandons in any country are destroyed. NONE of those massive numbers of 200 million pets (mostly dogs and cats, In 2017 the total number of cats owned as a pet in the United States amounted to about 95.6 millions. In the same year, some 68 percent of all U.S. households owned at least one pet.) in the USA would survive independently in the non existent ecosystem out there without humans feeding them unnaturally produced food.

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Noelle Obcarskas

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Arrate Txu Cats are strictly carnivores and if you really feed them vegan food, I hope someone will rescue them from you.
Get rabbits.

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Noelle Obcarskas not bothered about rescuing the animals you kill yourself i see...their lives do not matter to you obviously. so why be bothered about cats thriving on vegan food ? hypocrisy. If you think it is ok for humans to breed and kill animals...then you cannot really care what any animal is fed that it thrives on. There is no logic to your preference for cats to other animals it is like prefering white people to black people. No one is going to "save" any vegan fed cat from anyone. Animals are property under the law everywhere. We can kill them eat them ...far more drastic than what we feed them. http://vegan-information.com/Vegan_Cats_List_Examples.html

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Arrate Txu Noelle Obcarskas Me killing animals? Carnivore animals thriving with vegan diets just because you obblied to eat against their nature? Animals being mistreated than cannot be separated from someone who thinks she knows better than nature? Nice try... and then you even have the courage to type “hypocrisy” in your post.

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Noelle Obcarskas Arrate Txu why the ? question mark about killing animals ref yourself...that is what you advocate for a pet cat is it not ? clear in your hostile comment about feeding healthy vegan catfood to a cat. You fail to understand that the petfood authorities themselves have criteria that the vegan petfoods sold have to meet and in fact exceed ! so your ignorant view about animals taken away to be KILLED i add as millions per year are destroyed as rubbish humans no longer want ...is ridiculous. Not going to happen...animals destroyed is your wish in your ignorance also about the millions of animals destroyed that people throw out like garbage property they do not want anymore.

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Noelle Obcarskas Or are you unaware that the USA destroys 4 million unwanted garbage property pet cats and dogs per year ? Did you think that USA society CARES about those 4 million to not kill them ? wake up. Cats and dogs are garbage property people can destroy when no longer wanted.

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Noelle Obcarskas I hope you read and consider this issue of the how we understand and apply the principle of "animals are not ours" better....because if we agree that "animals are not ours" to use...then we cannot justify using them as resources. Links provided. The 1st principle of vegan ethics is...we should stop owning animals and using them as resources because we do not have the moral RIGHT to OWN ANIMALS....and that means killing bred by humans forced to be bred and forced to die animals.

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Noelle Obcarskas i went out of cat curiosity onto your page...you are active to save feral cats....articles about spaying castrating feral cats issues. Australia is culling 2 million gone feral cats you may be aware of. Many feral cats are destroyed if they do not star…See More

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Noelle Obcarskas The truth is rather unpleasant but it would be facing the truth to admit...rats..cats...are pests. Rats carry diseases that endanger human life if allowed to proliferate living off human garbage mostly. Cats are pests that destroy real wildlife to mass populations...40 percent of all wild birds are killed by domestic cats. Real wildlife has globally declined by 70 percent in the past 40 years everywhere from hedgehogs birds to elephants. Animal agriculture is the main cause of reduction of their habitats to grow plants to feed animals killed for humans and pets to eat. Pet protein based on animal content would be the 5th largest population continent in the world ! it is a huge contributor to disappearance of real wildlife. DOMESTIC BREED animals be they farm ones or pet ones are not part of any natural ecosystem. They are a massive cause of destruction of the real ecosystem and the extinction of the domesticated species is desirable. Pet ownership cessation is desirable. AS I TYPE UK TV just said PET OWNERSHIP IS DECLINING....this is GOOD NEWS ! less pets means less rescues killed and LESS ANIMALS OWNED as prisoners.

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Noelle Obcarskas i actually realise the hardest thing for humans to ever accept is NOT OWNING ANIMALS ! as PETS or FARM Animals but most difficult to accept is stopping pet ownership as an ethical vegan goal. People ENJOY owning PETS is the unfortunate truth and that is why we use fuzzy terms like "companion animals" to cover up the truth that we OWN animals as pets. So many people cannot envisage a life or world without pets...and do not realise saying things like..well there will always be RESCUES full of abandons is using that as a convenient excuse to own pets. I actually disagree that breeders are the problem...it is PET OWNERSHIP ITSELF that is the real problem. A minimal number of specifically bred for purpose dogs and cats end up in rescues because people WANTED those animals enough to pay for them. The vast numbers of pets in rescues are the non pedigree unfashionable or not attractive nature or looks animals of mixed origins. Breeds of animals like huskies that can never be let off leads ...forced their entire prisoner lives to walk at the heels of a human on a leash. Fighting dog breeds that are unruly too boisterous for human society or dog social behaviour without massive "lobotomising" dog training expense to force them into human society acceptable behaviour.

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Noelle Obcarskas The words used "get rabbits" shows our real attitude to non human animals. They are THINGS we "get" like anything we choose to GET. In our minds....no matter what fuzzy words like "companions, fur babies" we use only i add for PETS we own not terms given to FARM ANIMALS we KILL for these PETS....animals are "THINGS" that we "GET" just like anything else we own and "get". Whether pets or farm animals...non human animals are deep down no matter what fuzzy words we like to use to cover up the truth...things...resources....to "get" as we please. so what we feed these "things" we "get" compared to KILLING ANIMALS we do not consider interesting enough to pet as pets on our laps...is irrelevant in comparison to death itself we FORCE on THINGS we GET.

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Noelle Obcarskas fyi...i did "GET" farm breed animals...turkeys in fact. That are often in catfood that is non vegan of course. So ? they are sickly in pain animals as Frankenstein unnatural bred by humans to be HEAVY too heavy to FLY as their natural ancestors could....they suffer pains in hearts respiration breathing problems and arthritis in their legs under their unnaturally heavy bodies as standard. THEY SUFFER VISIBLY unlike my healthy no pain vegan fed cat and dogs. WHO CARES ? not those USING these turkeys suffering unnatural bodies to feed a PET CAT ! yet i am not the COWARD or HYPOCRITE that others are who say..."GET" a turkey or rabbit not a cat....i GOT turkeys and I DECIDE ! WHO LIVES AND DIES AND WOULD KILL WHOEVER HAS TO DIE OR I CHOOSE TO DIE MYSELF ! rather than hide behind others doing that dirty killing job for me. http://vegan-information.com/Black_Christmas_Bronze... right now...the sickliest of the 5 turkeys i "GOT" was a death's door struggling to breath with mycoplasma...one vet wantd to KILL her euthanise her....i keep medicating her...she has suffered this disease all her 1 year short life. Of course commercial turkey farms CULL such sick turkeys. Animals lives are not important to commercial slaughter meat industry business. Does she WANT to die ? I cannot tell animals cannot SPEAK ENGLISH to say what they want....certainly they would say NO to having their TESTICLES cut off but humans FORCE that on them anyway of course. Animals stop eating if they want to die....she struggles to try keep eating so i will NOT play GOD and take her life. Animals in the wild die without vets euthanising them....I will NOT take her life. Last night I left some so called vegan group who said I SHOULD KILL MY SICK TURKEY HEN. The very same people into feeding bred and killed by humans animals to their PET cats they have cut the testicles off and deprived of ever having a natural life and family of their own and feed unnaturally as hairless ape humans feeding another species of animal ...that in itself is totally UNNATURAL ! these people....choose to decide that a turkey hen who gives NO CONSENT TO HER DEATH SHOULD DIE ! ? talk about playing GOD hey. We "GET" the animals we want...KILL those we do not like as much to own as PETS...and cut the testicles off the ones we keep as PETS. Do we think a cat has any idea or cares what is in the dish of food a hairless ape human unnaturally places in front of her ? i am just surprised we have not tried teaching these PETS to eat using knives and forks ! since when do wild animals eat off PLATES ? use LITTER TRAYS ? sleep on couches ? live in human houses ? the entire argument for NATURAL LIFESTYLES is flawed....deeply flawed...we SHOULD NOT BE FEEDING ANY NON HUMAN ANIMAL IN OUR HOMES IN THE 1st PLACE to be NATURAL !

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Noelle Obcarskas It is time...run out for millions already ...for us humans to fund vets to SAVE REAL WILDLIFE ! what is LEFT of it out there ! instead of this pathetic selfish PET SPECIES FOCUS ! There are more pet domestic and gone feral domestic breed pet CATS in 1 city today than the ENTIRE WORLD POPULATION OF JUST 20 THOUSAND WILD LIONS LEFT in the world ! only 4 thousand wild tigers only left in the entire world...THEY ARE EXTINCT SPECIES for all intent and purposes ! due to this PET OWNERSHIP and ANIMAL AGRICULTURE with the huge factor of PETFOOD obsession of a totally UNNATURAL existance controlled by HUMANS !

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Noelle Obcarskas is it ethical ? is it DIGNIFIED ? is it NATURAL ? for humans to breed suffering chickens 19 adult size ones at age 6 weeks old when they are killed in 1m2 cages ? suffering internal heart pains leg pains etc ? to feed a PET CAT ? is THIS NATURAL ? of course not...is it ETHICAL to live off such PAIN AND SUFFERING AND DEATH that those animals GOT NO CHOICE about ? of course not. HUMANS are just using their POWER to ABUSE these animals to indulge their FANTASIES that they have some mini toy lion in their homes to pet and ignoring half of a family of wild lions DIES in the wild naturally ...takes these PET cats to vets to have injections testicles cut off etc and do not educate themselves to get out of the fantasy delusions and understand TAURINE IS SYNTHETIC SO VEGAN IN ALL PETFOODS WHEN ON THE LABELS ! so why pretend that all pet cats are not alive thanks to VEGAN SYNTHETIC nutrients in the 1st place ? the rest in "meat" ? what is it they need ? if no DETAILS given...which is not possible as obviously the nutrients in vegan catfoods ARE there or the cats would be DEAD FAST ! then stop the fantasies and learn the truth and face up to truths better is my advice.

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Noelle Obcarskas Why are vegan fed cats not sick and dead within weeks if they are not getting the nutrients they need in their human created petfood ? if anyone objecting cannot come up with a more DETAILED reason for this...then i suggest facing the truth of the facts is best read up on to understand the WHY. Any animal not getting its species specific nutrients needs WOULD GET SICK AND DIE FAST...it would NOT take 20 YEARS to achieve ! some common sense is needed i suggest. FYI one response to these 20 year old examples of vegan fed cats i got was...well if the cats had been fed MEAT/ANIMALS they would have lived EVEN LONGER ! that is how RIDICULOUS and in DENIAL of FACTS people become when wanting to believe fantasies against evidence and common sense !

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Noelle Obcarskas Another "in denial" wishful thinking objection when presented with the FACTS that cats lived 20 years fed vegan was..."those are exceptions" well you see people will try ANYTHING to deny the common sense truth that contradicts their beliefs based on simplistic historic spouts of "obligate carnivores" which is a correct taxonomy classification of WILD LIVING EXTINCT CAT SPECIES like lions and tigers who have no ACCESS to the nutrients they need and die anyway half of the family do NOT make it to even adulthood in the wild. A CAT IS A CAT ! if not some "supernatural being" with needs totally different to its species..NO CAT would survive even 1 YEAR on a diet that did not meet its species needs. SOME common sense is needed to dispell this "cognitive dissonance" that seeing healthy vegan fed cats problem people have. If any cat...were not the same as the species cat generally....even allowing for individual genetic differences and propensities to diseases any cat species can get and do....no cats would be so EXCEPTIONAL to thrive on diets that their species need if those nutrients essential to the cat species were not provided in their diets.

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Noelle Obcarskas well this ex Capricorn Animal Rescue well socialised kitten now an adult vegan leaping cat was on USA Radio yesterday...the recorded talk...et voila ! le discours ! je leur explique...ce que veut dire OBLIGER l'origine du mot "obligate" utilisee pour les canivores ! ca veut dire FORCER ! le discours...and now...for POSTERITY here is the recording of the USA radio talk we did ! http://wcuw.org/.../V.N.12.27.18.Evolution.VeganCats... I mention Vegan Cats open public group English language cats group where posts of thousands of members can be read https://www.facebook.com/groups/126322004672/ and the France French vegan cats group Chats et Chiens végétaliens (VegAnimalis.com)https://www.facebook.com/groups/329178813798232/ and the Germany German Vegan Cats group Vegane Katzen. https://www.facebook.com/groups/vegankatzen/ and I mentioned Vegan Cats and Dogs United English language group. http://vegan-information.com/Vegan_Cats_List_Examples.html

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Now. I think like most vegans that IGNORANCE is why anyone doesn't make CHANGES needed to anything in our lives. I like most was IGNORANT of even the way cows milk didn't just flow on tap without producing babies that were taken away AT ONCE and KILLED ! or that male baby chickens are ground up ALIVE as part of the EGG industry ! this is barbaric ! but when you don't realise...that animals bred today are FREAKS that suffer pain in chests and legs as part of the norm of their aweful purpose of existence we human farmers have done to get more money out of these verbally handicapped living creatures...well...ignorance about WE DONT NEED THEM AS FOOD even as it is POISONING us...

Contact: My email is... admin@vegan-information.com and noelle.obcarskas@gmail.com

Page Sections will include...with HUMOUR and PICTURES and VIDEOS...LINKS mostly to useful further readings...regarding vegan,veganism,information,reasons,links,animals,cruelty,food,health,diet,environment,starvation

Reasons WHY....

How and why I personally became/went Vegan...

Millennials Driving the Future Move to a Vegan World Children of the Future

Breaking News

Wildlife_extinction_decline_Animal_Agriculture_Causes (land used to grow GMO farm animal food, excrement pollution of water killing marine life, climate change)

GOT THE VEGAN TSHIRT ! VEGAN SWEATSHIRT AND VEGAN HOODIE ! where I found my favorites...practical !

VEGAN VULTURE ! Gypohierax angolensisPalm Nut Vulture.

Fun stuff...how one UK Supermarket Tesco desperately tries to save the falling massively dairy industry rip off cruel unhealthy industry with misleading adverts lol !

Health Reasons Facts for Veganism and a special page for Where do you/ I get your/my Protein from ?

https://goveganworld.com/download-free-vegan-guide/

Environmental Reasons for Veganism

WHY NOT VEGAN arguments and reasons given

Religious Reasons for Veganism in 1 word it is COMPASSION/LOVE..start page...16th feb 2017

Vegan Food Labelling in UK British Supermarkets...7th March 2017 in one word..is a "MESS". Label with "WHITE V and word VEGAN underneath" or buy Raw and learn to cook delicious food and spirulla it.

Vegan Organisations Links

VALENTINES day , Easter Egg and other Vegan Chocolates

Spanish_Vegan_Food_la_Buenaventura

Vegan Books Vegan Cooking Books and Vegan Guides Free, Cheap and Normal prices

Pets_are_not_vegan_domestic_animals_freedom.html

Vegan Cats and Dogs Thriving on healthy Vegan plant based food

http://bitesizevegan.com/

FOOD ! British SUPERMARKET pictures of Vegan Food Finds lol ! started 6th Mar 2017 to sort out more...

Vegan Events Festivals Vegfests 2017

Other page links to come, vegan athletes, vegan videos of animal agriculture realities, famous people vegans etc

One to tickle the fancy started.. Living Role model .Body Builder Personal Trainer Hin Chun Chui

Vegan Athletes

Industry Specific Pages to be done...Dairy, Meat, Poultry, Fish, Insects, Clothing Fur and Leather, Cosmetics

Mostly simple MEME PICTURE pages with clear concise messages and links to other pages of information facts

Milk_Dairy_Industry_Realities Fish Realities

Milk_Dairy_Realities.html

Poultry Chicken Duck Quail Turkey Pheasant Grouse Farm Realities

Those are the NICE pages, then there are THE DARK SIDE PAGES. Links to show the hidden truths and realities.

The Dark Side. Meet your Meat, Fish, Milk and Egg realities.

http://www.80spopanimals.com/farmanimals

Meat and using animals is a choosing to make a choice to kill someone else...that involves taking away choice...from the victim.

http://vegan-information.com/Animals_Killed_for_food.html

vegan-information.com/Abolitionist_Vegan_Quotes.html

BREAKING NEWSFLASH 22 NOVEMBER 2017...not only in Knightsbridge is there now growing VEGAN FOOD in supermarkets ROSSETT VILLAGE STORES in NORTH WALES CYMRU EUROPE before BREXIT also ! The Future is...VEGAN !

CHRISTMAS RESCUED TURKEYS arrive in Pulford Chester Cheshire to become VEGAN ACTIVISTS..time people got to know WHO was that unrecognisable piece of dead body on their plates that they do not need to live healthily...http://vegan-information.com/Black_Christmas_Bronze_Turkeys_Vegan_Activists.html we do not realise or associate what we eat with a living person. TOFURKY is EASILY far tastier and healthier than dead bodies as food !

Peace on Earth...starts with removing VIOLENCE from our plates. Christmas, Xmas, Hanukka etc religious festivals if celebrations of DEATH on PLATES are irrelevant. Peace_on_Earth.html

Little Tyke was a Vegan Lioness by choice ...famous in the USA...ALL animals can become VEGAN it is all about nutrition needs to thrive ! http://vegan-information.com/Vegan_Rescue_Kitten_New_Little_Tyke_Midnight_Hannukah_Capricorn.html

Webpage created start date 12th Feb 2017. It doesn't matter what we think most people currently think or do...if we think we can do something good even if we think it small and insignificant...it makes a difference. As the fairy queen said to Frodo in the Lord of the Rings...even the smallest person in the world can make a difference. ONE makes a difference. of about 11 thousand killed land animals and 10 thousand marine animals totalling 22 THOUSAND ANIMALS BRED AND KILLED for 1 human flesh eater lifetime, just for FOOD ! Totally unnecessarily. Just to put a FIGURE to what 1 PERSON can achieve ! SUCCESS !

Every time we refuse to buy a dead animal product we affect the future avoidable deaths of those bred in the future. Vote with our Wallets and Demand Non Animal, Healthy, Natural Food as much as possible.